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| cloud VS sephiroth | Posted 12/10/2007 11:12:12 AM | message detail |
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The system is designed to work over time.
I've mentioned an other color for the recommendation link, and The
Admiral also had a good suggestion. Those two suggestions will certainly improve the system, and take maybe 15 minutes to do (or so). --- Absolute Steve. www.shillatime.org |
| Kratos15354 | Posted 12/10/2007 7:23:53 PM | message detail |
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I think part of the problem is that the lesser guides can answer some
questions just as well as the more refined and informative guides. If
somebody just wants to get through the game, every complete walkthrough
should be enough to satisfy that demand, meaning it's helpful, so the
reader recommends it. If the first one you check gets the job done, why
bother going to another to find a better one? It's not like people are
going to compare all of the available guides and then only recommend
the best one(s), they're going to recommend the first one they check
that gives the necessary information. Perhaps a better way of rating or calculating the rating would be to see if the same people check the same guide multiple times. A bad guide might get 50 unique hits, but if the readers don't go back to it with other questions, it doesn't mean much. A good guide might not get as many unique hits, but if its readers keep coming back, that should say something for the quality of the guide. --- Want a second opinion before contesting that moderation? Go to Hellhole: http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs9/gentopic.php?board=573081 |
| warfreak | Posted 12/10/2007 8:56:38 PM | message detail |
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Unique hits might not be such a good idea. Why? Because with that, size
does matter. The bigger the guide, the more hits there will be.
Incomplete guides should not get stars because they are not complete.
It does not provide all the information one will need, and it
misleading readers that it will provide all information that the other
guides have as well. A better idea would to do this without the star,
therefore, the reader can see the status of the guide, and not be
misled. Also, indepth guides should not be able to get stars, because
they are not a full FAQ in itself and like lufia has said, they are
liable to plagiarism off bigger guides. All in all, my two cents says
that this system is not working, at all. --- Judge: Order! Order! I will have order! von Karma: OBJECTION! I'm the one in charge here, you just bang the flimsy hammer and give your verdict. |
| Kratos15354 | Posted 12/10/2007 10:30:06 PM | message detail |
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Unique hits might not be such a good idea. Why? Because with that,
size does matter. The bigger the guide, the more hits there will be. I think you misunderstand. If a guide is good and helps a reader, he will go back to that same guide again with other questions. If the guide does not help the reader, he won't check it again. By looking at how many hits you get from each unique user/IP, you can get an idea of whether the guide helped people or not. I would find it more rewarding for 10 people to check it 10 times than 100 people to check it once. --- Want a second opinion before contesting that moderation? Go to Hellhole: http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs9/gentopic.php?board=573081 |
| cloud VS sephiroth | Posted 12/10/2007 11:30:37 PM | message detail |
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It's been mentioned - the unique hits. Problem is that it can be abused
too easily, resulting in being a not quite effective way of determining
if the guide has been helpful or not. There are more reasons to think
of besides this. Some people print out their guides. Some save it on
their PC. For now, I think that the recommendation system could certainly be improved by: - A different color for the recommendation link. (Limegreen, Turquoise) - A somewhat larger link for the recommendation link. If it's font 11, make it 12 or 13, for example. - Place the recommendation link on the bottom of the FAQ page as well. (Was it even intended to *not* be there?) - A request/note by SBAllen on the Daily Grind or Notifications for users to try and recommend more FAQs and Reviews they have found helpful, to help improve the site. - And, should all the aforementioned fail, perhaps a frontpage notice, and recommendation links on the FAQ list page itself. But this should be a last resort. It'd certainly help, but also involves more in-depth thinking. The other ideas can easily and smoothly be implemented right now without taking up much time or getting complaints. I think most regulars on GameFAQs are altruistic enough to make this work, but this just needs time to step out of it's baby shoes. Give it that time before squashing it. We need more people using this system. --- Absolute Steve. www.shillatime.org |
| Lufia_Maxim | Posted 12/11/2007 1:19:09 AM | message detail |
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- A request/note by SBAllen on the Daily Grind or Notifications for
users to try and recommend more FAQs and Reviews they have found
helpful, to help improve the site. I see no reason why SB couldn't do this. Not only will this inform many more users of the feature even existing (especially if SB's message is something like "Please recommend the guides you have/do/ find helpful"), but it would take less than a minute of SB's time. --- Post count adds to Karma. Again, guess you're just not intelligent to understand simple things. - Sunrie There is a walkthrough god, and he is Lufia. - smarttman |
| Sashanan | Posted 12/11/2007 12:09:52 PM | message detail |
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Since it appears that lack of use is currently blurring the question of
whether the system as it stands works or not, advertizing it a bit
might be the best thing to do for now. I'd agree with getting the word
out on MBA/DG and possibly making the recommendation system itself more
prominent on the layout. --- First you draw a circle, then you dot the eyes NP: Castlevania: Curse of Darkness |
| x_loto | Posted 12/11/2007 4:35:09 PM | message detail |
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If the first one you check gets the job done, why bother going to
another to find a better one? It's not like people are going to compare
all of the available guides and then only recommend the best one(s),
they're going to recommend the first one they check that gives the
necessary information. Actually, that's exactly what I do. I check each one, see which one is laid out best, and use it. This is because readability is very important to me--once I have the resource available, I want to be able to use it quickly. After that, if I find that there is info missing which is covered in another guide, I'll use them both in conjunction, giving a star to each one that I found helpful. Perhaps a better way of rating or calculating the rating would be to see if the same people check the same guide multiple times. A bad guide might get 50 unique hits, but if the readers don't go back to it with other questions, it doesn't mean much. A good guide might not get as many unique hits, but if its readers keep coming back, that should say something for the quality of the guide. This wouldn't work with someone like me either. Once I find one I like, I download it so I don't have to go looking for it again, or remember the author's name to find the right one. I'm not saying everyone is like me, but the probability of no one doing things the same or similarly is slim to none, and it would skew those results. Still, the current system is enigmatic at best, since (to the best of my knowledge) we still haven't been told what the percentage that leads to the star is taken from. Is it the ratio of recommendations to hits per guide? The ratio of recommendations to hits per game? Something else entirely? --- Currently Playing: Dragon Quest III (J) (NES), Xenogears (U) (PSX), Triple Play 2002 (U) (PS2) as SEA--Current Record: 8-2, #1 in AL! |
| Sashanan | Posted 12/11/2007 5:35:18 PM | message detail |
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In my understanding, it's the ratio of recommendations for that guide
to the total number of recommendations on all guides for that game. --- First you draw a circle, then you dot the eyes NP: Castlevania: Curse of Darkness |
| warfreak | Posted 12/11/2007 8:59:26 PM | message detail |
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that can't be right because other users have pointed out games with all
guides having a star. So it doesn't work. The FAQ rating system was
abolished in the first place because it didn't work. It was open to
abuse and when the requirements were increased to 2 FAQs submitted
before voting, it ceased to work altogether. I'm against this. --- Judge: Order! Order! I will have order! von Karma: OBJECTION! I'm the one in charge here, you just bang the flimsy hammer and give your verdict. |
| Sashanan | Posted 12/11/2007 9:09:01 PM | message detail |
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Thinking back to SBAllen's post... "So for now in order to fix this, I'm making the following changes. From now on, the top 2% of FAQs and the top 2% of reviews will be given a star. In addition, all FAQ/Review of the Month winners will automatically be given a star." Combined with my understanding that this refers to needing a certain % of the total recommendations, this would imply that it's theoretically possible for all guides on a game to have a star as long as there are no more than 50 guides (in which case a perfectly even distribution of recommendations would mean they all have 2%). 2% is of course a threshold so low that it's silly, but I understood this to be a temporary thing, because otherwise virtually no stars were visible anywhere, and that threshold is to be raised when more recommendations roll in. This is just theorizing on my part about the way the system works technically though, I'm still on the fence as to whether this is the right way to go about it. I think more time and more voting from the users is needed to see what this fleshes out to. --- First you draw a circle, then you dot the eyes NP: Castlevania: Curse of Darkness |
| warfreak | Posted 12/11/2007 9:31:33 PM | message detail |
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its been nearly a month, and the results aren't too impressing. This system would need some tweaking to make better. --- Judge: Order! Order! I will have order! von Karma: OBJECTION! I'm the one in charge here, you just bang the flimsy hammer and give your verdict. |
| cloud VS sephiroth | Posted 12/11/2007 10:34:07 PM | message detail |
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Which is why we're all posting in this topic, to try and make it better. More faith would help too. --- Absolute Steve. www.shillatime.org |
| The Admiral | Posted 12/11/2007 11:07:58 PM | message detail |
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Looks like the consensus is too try to increase usage of this system
through some sort of advertising. There are several very easy things
that would work: • Take some random Friday and make it "FAQ Writer's Appreciation Day," with a message on the front page that encourages everyone to vote for their favorite FAQs. • Have a Poll of the Day question asking what people think of the new recommendation system • Create topics on MBA and Daily Grind encouraging people to use the system when they find guides they like • Send all users a system notice letting them know of it (not the preferred method) I can't really think of a single reason against doing one or more of those things. The hard part in coding the system is already done, so why not spend spend another 5 minutes and make sure it's being used? I don't think this corrects a lot of the fundamental problems of the system (which I mentioned in earlier posts), but it does at least let us see the feature in action. Right now, the system is useless, and arguably counterproductive. --- - The Admiral |
| Lufia_Maxim | Posted 12/17/2007 4:18:35 AM | message detail |
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• Have a Poll of the Day question asking what people think of the new recommendation system • Create topics on MBA and Daily Grind encouraging people to use the system when they find guides they like These two points should be enough. Considering the amount of votes on the PotD (a lot of those are users of the site as well) and posting it on MBA and/or DG should bring it to the attention for a lot of people as well. --- Post count adds to Karma. Again, guess you're just not intelligent to understand simple things. - Sunrie There is a walkthrough god, and he is Lufia. - smarttman |
| warfreak | Posted 12/23/2007 4:39:10 AM | message detail |
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the problem with recommendation I find that it that when you need
something to guide you through a game, you look for the first guide and
find that info. If you were to recommend the best, then you would have
to look through all available FAQs and find the best. I bet most people
can't be bothered to do that, and will only recommend the first one
that helps them, if they do so at all. --- Click Here for Free Oxygen Goodness |
| _VMerken_ | Posted 12/27/2007 3:41:24 PM | message detail |
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I fully agree with The Admiral - this system is inadequate in its
current form. Personally speaking, I'll even go one further and say the
system is superfluous: every author here has done his or her work
completely free of charge, so everyone's FAQ deserves to be treated
equally. Besides, I often run into situations where only reading all
the faqs (even the incomplete ones) gives me an answer to the
question(s) I have. Of course, I understand that I'm not the only one here, so if most FAQ authors want to be "more equal" than the others, then hey, star away. @warfreak: I'm sorry, but as someone who has written in-depth FAQs and knows the effort involved, I completely disagree with your statements that in-depth FAQs shouldn't be starred. There are quite a few quality in-depth FAQs out there which cover things such as time attacks, low% runs, detailed plot analyses etc which (if we're starring in the first place) deserve such a star. In order to write such in-depth FAQs, you need to completely master the game and know all its intricacies in order to find the strategies you need to achieve the objective(s). I can guarantee you that the people who write such in-depth gems are easily able to write a complete walkthrough and/or general FAQ in a fraction of the time they need to write the in-depth one. They don't, because going in-depth is much more fun, and they are fully committed to the game. Therefore, in-depth FAQs should definitely be eligible for a star, which is currently (and rightfully) the case. Unfortunately, the system in its current form is not what it should be, and I support The Admiral 100%. |
| Shotgunnova | Posted 12/27/2007 6:26:26 PM | message detail |
| Admiral's dead-on with his suggestions. I'd love
to see any or all of those ideas be implemented to get readers more
involved, because it's (still) a pretty paltry outing even if y'factor
out older games. On that end, I'd note that even with the low numbers,
I'd throw back any of my 'tin star' FOTM awards in a heartbeat -- they
don't tell me if readers actually dis/like the work, and are pretty
useless except to increase the number of rateds (IMO). And take away in-depth/maps/etc. stars? Gawd I hope not. --- Take me down from the ridge where the summer ends And watch the city spread out just like a jet's flame |
| Kratos15354 | Posted 12/27/2007 11:12:17 PM | message detail |
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The only benefit I see to starring in-depth faqs is to let the author
know somebody likes it. The whole point of starring walkthroughs is to
show the readers which ones stand out and are usually better.
Walkthroughs can be compared like that because they cover the same
subject, but in-depth faqs don't. There are few cases of there being
more than one in-depth faq on the same subject, making it a bit
pointless to star the one and only in-depth faq of its kind. --- Want a second opinion before contesting that moderation? Go to Hellhole: http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs9/gentopic.php?board=573081 |
| _VMerken_ | Posted 12/28/2007 3:10:19 PM | message detail |
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"The only benefit I see to starring in-depth faqs is to let the author
know somebody likes it. The whole point of starring walkthroughs is to
show the readers which ones stand out and are usually better." Not necessarily. Here are some criteria I'd use to judge whether or not an in-depth FAQ should be eligible for a star: (1) The in-depth FAQ stands out for what it does: it has set (a) goal(s) for the game which are either not trivial to achieve (time attacks, low%, "low power weapon only" are exampes of this) and/or surprisingly original to the point that they offer a whole new, enjoyable way to play the game (a good example of this is AyaBrea's Final Fantasy 8 "powerup" FAQ, or admiralhowdy's Resident Evil 4 "Minimum Shots Fired Challenge Guide") or offers a different take on the game content (plot analysis) (2) The in-depth FAQ brings the goods: the goal(s) it set out are accomplished with flying colours (3) The in-depth FAQ is well-formatted: clear overview and structuring of the text so that all content can be found and read with ease (4) The in-depth FAQ is well-written: strategies are crystal clear from reading the text, all details are covered, text is concise, author has a distinct, interesting writing style, etc Points (1) and (2) do not require peer comparison (although that may arise if similar FAQs appear): players familiar with the game described by the in-depth FAQ (and they should, otherwise why read an in-depth FAQ?) will know whether or not the challenge(s) brought forward in the FAQ are trivial, so they can be appreciated as such. They are also familiar with the game content, so they should be able to recognise and appreciate any extra insights offered by a plot analysis. Points (3) and (4) (should) apply to regular FAQs as well, so they shouldn't be a problem either. In any case, I don't see why an in-depth FAQ shouldn't be starred, considering that the readers can potentially get a LOT out of some of them and that it can be a truly fascinating piece of work, just like some regular FAQs are truly fascinating pieces of work. |
| The Admiral | Posted 12/28/2007 4:50:28 PM | message detail |
| ^ That depends on what you view as the goal of
this system. I never thought it was supposed to be a way to show off
"good" FAQs. There are more than enough ways for FAQers to be
recognized already. Besides, if this is the goal, the system fails
miserably for almost any game created before 1998. Instead, I always
viewed this system as a way to help readers
distinguish which FAQs were the most helpful, so they can avoid going
through 12 different walkthroughs when looking for an answer. This is
really not applicable to in-depth guides. Whether an in-depth guide is
good or bad is irrelevant if there are no alternatives (which is
something this site generally frowns upon). Also, knowing that a
character guide is starred does not help me if I need a good weapons
guide. I don't think most people here read FAQs for enjoyment, so
someone isn't much more likely to use an in-depth guide if it does not
pertain to information they seek, even if it is starred. --- - The Admiral |
| TheGoldenState | Posted 12/29/2007 9:46:14 AM | message detail |
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So this FAQ really got a star. This makes me wonder since the board has only one topic. Oh, and that topic was created by me... --- Aeronautical |
| TheGoldenState | Posted 12/29/2007 9:47:40 AM | message detail |
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Here's the link: http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/ps2/game/561607.html --- Aeronautical |
| _VMerken_ | Posted 12/29/2007 4:12:01 PM | message detail |
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@The Admiral Your statement: "I never thought it was supposed to be a way to show off "good" FAQs." contradicts this one: "Instead, I always viewed this system as a way to help readers distinguish which FAQs were the most helpful, so they can avoid going through 12 different walkthroughs when looking for an answer." If a starred FAQ has been "judged" to be "most helpful", then it has been "judged" to be the best FAQ on that basis. So a starred FAQ is a way to show off the best FAQs - no need to hide it with euphemisms. And to be honest, as a layman, when I see a star in front of a FAQ, I see a very strong distinction with respect to the other FAQs. The star is a powerful draw to click on the FAQ. This automatically creates a good-bad association between all the FAQs, and I'm sure many other surfers who come here will think the same. A star system is typical "all FAQs are equal, but some are more equal than others" nonsense. "This is really not applicable to in-depth guides." Actually, using the star mindset you bring on, it is. Some in-depth FAQs can be "more helpful" than others. Whether or not they deal with the same theme is irrelevant - they're all in-depth FAQs. If surfers seek pure, cold information of a particular kind, then there's no need for peer comparison since that info is in the FAQ, isn't it? Sure, afterwards, if a peer guide appears, people can then see if it was "more helpful" than the other one and then the star trades places (or it doesn't). As for the fear of seeing stars all over the in-depth FAQ segment: why care? Stars are innocent, little icons, only there to show the most helpful documents, right? And I'm sure clever people will find ways to reduce in-depth FAQ star density if needed. "Whether an in-depth guide is good or bad is irrelevant if there are no alternatives (which is something this site generally frowns upon)." I'm very sorry, but considering that all FAQs have been written by enthusiastic people, have passed muster as described by the gamefaqs rules set (there has already been a "selection") and have been released by these people to the public for no charge at all means that there is nothing to generally frown upon. Nothing at all. If the people of this site "generally frown" upon other people releasing something like a time attack, low% guide, powerup guide etc because there's no compare, then you are sad, little persons. I'm sure that in the day, well-respected citizens generally frowned upon Picasso's work because it was weird and definitely crap because there was no compare. I bet noone ever put a star on his work back then. Thing is, we know about Picasso and his story now (and heck, we know about Animal Farm, too), so I kind of expect people to learn from it and not get into this kind of nonsense ever again. But hey, this isn't my site, if the site owners think stars are cool, then they think stars are cool. "Also, knowing that a character guide is starred does not help me if I need a good weapons guide." No, but it does tell me that that character guide has been judged to be quite helpful to a lot of people, which is the intent of the star system, isn't it? Besides, if you are searching for a weapons guide, you shouldn't be looking at character guides anyway. "I don't think most people here read FAQs for enjoyment, so someone isn't much more likely to use an in-depth guide if it does not pertain to information they seek, even if it is starred." Same goes for regular FAQs. If I do not seek general walkthrough information, I won't look at the general FAQs, even if they're starred. Personally, I would like this star system dead and buried, certainly in its current form. But, as the system has been implemented, then I really do not see a reason to leave out the in-depth FAQs. |
| Kratos15354 | Posted 12/29/2007 5:58:43 PM | message detail |
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I'm very sorry, but considering that all FAQs have been written by
enthusiastic people, have passed muster as described by the gamefaqs
rules set (there has already been a "selection") and have been released
by these people to the public for no charge at all means that there is
nothing to generally frown upon. Nothing at all. If the people of this site "generally frown" upon other people releasing something like a time attack, low% guide, powerup guide etc because there's no compare, then you are sad, little persons. If you'll look in the help files (http://www.gamefaqs.com/features/help/entry.html?cat=27), you'll notice under the "Will you accept a FAQ for (insert game here)?" section this entry: For In-Depth FAQs, rarely will a second FAQ on the same subject be posted. If I'm looking for help getting through a dungeon, I'll look in a faq. But which one of the maybe dozen should I read? The stars help with this by identifying the ones that have helped other users. If I'm looking for help with items in a game, I'll read the item faq. But how will I know which one to use? It's quite easy to choose when there's only one, making the star a bit pointless. --- Want a second opinion before contesting that moderation? Go to Hellhole: http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs9/gentopic.php?board=573081 |
| cloud VS sephiroth | Posted 12/29/2007 7:07:57 PM | message detail |
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I don't quite see the fuzz. The only thing that needs working on is
publicity of this rating system, which can be done by trying the
suggestions mentioned earlier on in this topic. While most of the FAQ
writers who come to this board are really great, excellent writers,
some Walkthroughs are simply put crap.
There can be many reasons why it is still posted on GameFAQs: It could
be the first guide for the game, it could have a good walkthrough but
extremely lacks at other important sections, etc. The Star simply helps
people to see what other people thought was useful. It also doesn't
really matter how you see the rating system, be it a way to show off
FAQs, or a way to help a reader choose one of the generally more
helpful FAQs. As for In-Depth FAQs, those can be helpful just like
Walkthroughs can be helpful, so there is absolutely no need to not star them. Besides, there is no harm in starring them. --- Absolute Steve. www.shillatime.org |
| The Admiral | Posted 2/13/2008 5:49:47 AM | message detail |
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Just noticed this lost it's sticky. No need for it to be purged yet. --- - The Admiral |
| Super Slash | Posted 2/13/2008 5:51:36 AM | message detail |
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It won't purge, though; it'll get archived automatically. --- Current Amount of FAQs: 27 (7689 Total KB) Current KB FAQ Rank: KB King |
| The Admiral | Posted 2/13/2008 5:54:22 AM | message detail |
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No it won't. The archive only applies to gaming boards. Notice no archived topics here. --- - The Admiral |
| Space Medafighter X | Posted 2/13/2008 5:57:27 AM | message detail |
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Good catch Admiral. Slash; notice the lack of archived topics on this board so far ;) ? --- We apologize for the inconvenience. MegaMan Social Board - http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/gentopic.php?board=527 |
| Super Slash | Posted 2/13/2008 5:59:51 AM | message detail |
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Crap; I keep forgetting about that. >_< --- Current Amount of FAQs: 27 (7689 Total KB) Current KB FAQ Rank: KB King |
| StarFighters76 | Posted 2/15/2008 3:10:10 AM | message detail |
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I wonder why this got destickied? --- How much is a large water? - 50 cents How much is a free water? - O_o |
| TheGoldenState | Posted 2/15/2008 7:18:21 AM | message detail |
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old news? --- Audioslave |
| The Admiral | Posted 2/16/2008 6:13:45 AM | message detail |
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As none of the suggestions to improve this abysmal system have adopted, I think this topic is still newsworthy. --- - The Admiral |
| warfreak | Posted 2/21/2008 9:07:34 PM | message detail |
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You sure about that Admiral? Wait, you are The Admiral --- Defence is the best form of attack, except when the other side is defending. |
| Deathborn 668 | Posted 2/25/2008 11:56:53 PM | message detail |
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One of my FAQ's won FotM, yet it isn't starred. Did the system change or something? --- 130 days until I'm an Ancient/DoR FC:519815-461795 Current FAQ Total:6647 KB |
| cloud VS sephiroth | Posted 3/5/2008 9:06:33 PM | message detail |
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If it was from before 2003 or so, then it could've been the old system
interfering. Otherwise, I wouldn't know. Perhaps it's starred by now? --- Absolute Steve. www.shillatime.org |
| Deathborn 668 | Posted 3/7/2008 1:52:29 AM | message detail |
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It's not starred still and the game is from 2006... --- 120 days until I'm an Ancient/DoR FC:519815-461795 Current FAQ Total:6975 KB |
| cloud VS sephiroth | Posted 3/7/2008 11:48:35 AM | message detail |
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http://www.gamefaqs.com/contribute/report_problem.php Use the contribution problem form, and tell them just what the problem is, in this case that it was a FotM and it's not starred. Hope that helps.. --- Absolute Steve. www.shillatime.org |
| Gemerl | Posted 3/8/2008 5:09:39 AM | message detail |
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Heh, my two most recent FOTM's aren't starred, but I'm not bothering
with that :). Given their mostly solitary positions, it's merely
cosmetic for me. --- Complete FAQS: 65 http://faqs.retronintendo.com | http://sms.sitesled.com |
