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I'd like some tips on improving a guide that was rejected due to oversaturation

kylohk | Posted 3/5/2008 10:27:37 PM | message detail
I've recently submitted a guide to Legend of Zelda: TP, which already had 12 complete guides for it.

It was rejected for oversaturation, even though I included all the information about the optional quests for the game. I'd be grateful if someone give me some pointers in improving it so that it is"complete and comprehensive, and must compare favorably to the other complete guides for the game", as said by the FAQ.

Here's a link to the file for your reference: http://www.filenanny.com/files/478cfca9da33f10982/LoZTP2.txt

Thank you in advance.
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"Hello, Klein, remember me?" - BANG! - A murderous biker in a French Movie
Games | Posted 3/5/2008 10:57:41 PM | message detail
The game has 12 complete guides.

I highly doubt SB will accept another guide.

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kylohk | Posted 3/5/2008 11:08:54 PM | message detail
I checked the list for the GCN version of the game, and there are 13 guides, the latest one accepted on Jan 3, 2008. So, I'm sure there should still be room.
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"Hello, Klein, remember me?" - BANG! - A murderous biker in a French Movie
Shotgunnova | Posted 3/5/2008 11:12:27 PM | message detail
Dungeon maps. Dunno if that'd make Sailor accept it, but that's definitely one way to jazz the thing up and set it apart from the rest.

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Take me down from the ridge where the summer ends
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Devin Morgan | Posted 3/5/2008 11:22:17 PM | message detail
^No, that would probably be seen as filler.

My personal guess is simply that there are too many guides posted at this point. SB doesn't seem to have the same perspective as CJayC did, where _anything_ will go up as long as it's complete.

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Devin Morgan | CRP #3579
NES FAQ Completion Project:
http://faqs.retronintendo.com
Shotgunnova | Posted 3/5/2008 11:44:09 PM | message detail
Maps as filler? A chill wind blows...

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Take me down from the ridge where the summer ends
And watch the city spread out just like a jet's flame
PeTeRL90 | Posted 3/6/2008 12:28:47 AM | message detail
That certainly didn't stop Shotgunnova's FFIX guide (which is helping me through the game since I haven't played it in like, 3 years) from being posted.

Or was that during CJay's watch?
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Crazyreyn | Posted 3/6/2008 1:35:53 AM | message detail
If this is the official stance on over saturation - that there can now only be a finite amount of guides for a game - then we should know more about it. I can imagine writers, me included (I was planning on writing a TP guide at some point) not knowing this and wasting months of hard work on guides that will never be accepted. What is the limit to this? 8 guides? 10 guides? 12 guides? What if the new guide is better than those accepted - can a poorer quality one be replaced with the one submitted?

It is pretty bad that the stance can change like this without writers knowing explicitly... the new guidelines on over saturation more clear and apparent.
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brian sulpher | Posted 3/6/2008 2:25:33 AM | message detail
A co-author if mine experienced the same thing recently. It appears the days of taking stuff that is fully comprehensive is now up to the discretion of SBAllen on whether there remains a new way to present the info.
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77 FAQs for games never covered at www.GameFAQs.com.
Redemption is only three fights away
Super Slash | Posted 3/6/2008 2:35:48 AM | message detail
If the policy for getting FAQs accepted has changed, I'm not sure I want to write a walkthrough for FF7 unless I know for sure another one will be posted.
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Current Amount of FAQs: 27 (7689 Total KB)
Current KB FAQ Rank: KB King
ffmasterjose | Posted 3/6/2008 2:56:33 AM | message detail
I don't know SS. Even going by "CJayC standards" (for lack of a better description) a new guide for Final Fantasy VII would have to be a knockout out-of-the-park grand slam. It's probably the most covered game on the site. Not to mention a fellow by the name of Cloud VS. Sephiroth (Absolute Steve is his contributor name I believe) recently got a new FAQ for it posted some months ago. I don't recall when precisely it was first submitted, it was either at the tail-end of CJayC's time or the beginning of SBAllen's start as Editor in Chief. The board received it fairly well from what I remember.

But despite all of that, I'm not one to discourage people from writing :D. I just wanted to give you a heads up in case you didn't know.
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Only fools are enslaved by time and space
Tessa 6 | Posted 3/6/2008 3:04:56 AM | message detail
I can understand having a limit on guides, though it should always be up to the quality of the guide.. but I can't understand not having those limits known.
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~Karpah~Iron Maiden - 4th February 2008 ^_^
What do girls do during sex, anyways. They just lay there and moan a lot!
Devin Morgan | Posted 3/6/2008 3:09:10 AM | message detail
Shotgunnova | Posted 3/5/2008 5:44:09 PM | message detail
Maps as filler? A chill wind blows...


Well, it's not exactly the boldest move to suggest padding the size of the file further to "increase" its chances of being posted. In my opinion, that would only increase the chances of SB rejecting it again (this time with the option of using Filler as the reason for rejection). Personally I have no idea why kylohk's FAQ isn't going up; I thought SB was only cracking down on in-depth files?

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Devin Morgan | CRP #3579
NES FAQ Completion Project:
http://faqs.retronintendo.com
ffmasterjose | Posted 3/6/2008 3:11:18 AM | message detail
[This message was deleted at the request of the original poster]
Devin Morgan | Posted 3/6/2008 3:20:41 AM | message detail
Super Slash | Posted 3/5/2008 8:35:48 PM | message detail
If the policy for getting FAQs accepted has changed, I'm not sure I want to write a walkthrough for FF7 unless I know for sure another one will be posted.


This is the kind of thing SB wants to avoid, I believe. Find another game...

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Devin Morgan | CRP #3579
NES FAQ Completion Project:
http://faqs.retronintendo.com
Super Slash | Posted 3/6/2008 3:23:10 AM | message detail
And so it is, then.
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Current Amount of FAQs: 27 (7689 Total KB)
Current KB FAQ Rank: KB King
brian sulpher | Posted 3/6/2008 3:47:41 AM | message detail
My co-author did a OoT FAQ, and it was rejected flat out. Allen also told my that something like Professor Layton is a simple game in design, so not likely to take more than five or so for it. The times are a changing my friends.
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77 FAQs for games never covered at www.GameFAQs.com.
Redemption is only three fights away
The Admiral | Posted 3/6/2008 5:00:48 AM | message detail
What the changing times should also do is force a reevaluation of existing guides for these popular games. I have no problem with a rule saying no new guides can be submitted if there are 12 great FAQs already, but there are never 12 great ones. There are usually 1-2 great ones, 2-3 good ones, and 5-7 bad or incomplete guides. If those crappy and incomplete guides are not coming down, it's not really fair to reject complete, well written guides that are better than what's written.

At some point SB needs to open this topic up for discussion with the FAQ community. It's really absurd that people spend dozens and dozens of hours with zero compensation working on a guide to help this site, only to have it rejected for reasons that are never officially articulated. Show the unpaid content providers at least that courtesy, as this site is nothing without them.
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- The Admiral
GhostOfLegault | Posted 3/6/2008 5:22:16 AM | message detail
The Admiral pretty much hit the nail on the head IMO, especially for older games that may have many, uncomprehensive guides. I think the quality of th existing guides should be taken into account as opposed to rejecting an incoming guide just because it's "one too many".

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A I e x | Posted 3/6/2008 5:50:16 AM | message detail
When you really think about it, any kind of change in the way things work like this, or just the general ambiguity of most of it in general, is just a disrespectful spit in the face to all writers considering how totally silent the admins are 99% of the time, and the time and effort people put into their work.
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Super Slash | Posted 3/6/2008 5:50:17 AM | message detail
I sincerely hope I'm not wasting my time with my Golden Sun: TLA guide...
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Current Amount of FAQs: 27 (7689 Total KB)
Current KB FAQ Rank: KB King
brian sulpher | Posted 3/6/2008 2:39:59 PM | message detail
Maybe Allen could put some sort of note on those pages he no longer will accept FAQs for (since this policy seems unlikely to change from the chats he and I have had on the subject)? Something has to be done or we will see this same topic spawn again and again.
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77 FAQs for games never covered at www.GameFAQs.com.
Redemption is only three fights away
cloud VS sephiroth | Posted 3/6/2008 4:06:05 PM | message detail
My view on the whole issue:

It wasn't the FF7 Guide I wrote that was posted recently, although it is still the "newest guide"; It's first public release was late September 2006. I put a lot of work in it and basically tried to make it flawless. Before I sent it in, it was already months in the making, and it was more complete at it's original draft than it had to be, because back then you'd only need to have the walkthrough complete. I also use a different approach than most other guides, the approach of the completionist, perfectionist if you will.

The FF8 Guide I've written was posted much more recently, and definitely by SBAllen. Split Infinity also got his FAQ posted, also under SBAllen's policy. The thing here is, and I know this is the case here because I've thoroughly read all other FF8 Guides, the quality of FF8 FAQs was overall low. There was room for quality FAQs to be posted. Split is an established FAQ writer, and likes to deliver quality. I can also speak for myself that I've put a lot of time into this project (and still do), because I actually research the games myself and uncover new unique information. Yes, even after all those years, there were a few things never covered. Now they are. I think SBAllen has an excellent eye for this, or it would have simply been rejected by "oversaturation, overcompleteness, the game has been done to death".

That being said, I don't think there is a need for FF7 or FF8 guides to be written anymore, because there are at least two quality FAQs for both games. It would be an insult to the quality FAQs to post lesser FAQs (which are already massively present in those lists).

Problem is: The older FAQs clutter up the lists, making it hard(er) for everyone to see what the quality files are. The Star system sometimes helps, but unfortunately often makes things worse. It's great that the site used to accept everything that was complete, but quality over quantity anytime..

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Shotgunnova | Posted 3/6/2008 4:15:58 PM | message detail
Hey now, Dev, I didn't say anything about increasing file size; maps can cut down on useless direction-giving. I get where you're coming from though.

I think the quality of th existing guides should be taken into account as opposed to rejecting an incoming guide just because it's "one too many".

^^

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Take me down from the ridge where the summer ends
And watch the city spread out just like a jet's flame
cloud VS sephiroth | Posted 3/6/2008 4:20:04 PM | message detail
And I would like to add to this:

The policy indeed needs to be more clear, and it definitely needs to be more of a common knowledge thing. A note at the specific FAQ page, an update in some sort of policy file, it doesn't matter, but it's clear that no one wants writers to waste time on their Guides. I'm not saying the policy isn't fair, but we need to know more about it.

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Absolute Steve.
www.shillatime.org
Gemerl | Posted 3/6/2008 4:35:30 PM | message detail
Yeah, I agree with that. It definitely needs to be made more clear.

For a lot of these over saturated games (mainstream rpgs for example), the time involved to write a guide is not trivial. Quality not withstanding, this could stop a lot of potential faqers from writing and having fun doing so. And it's not because they -can't- write for their favourite games but because they didn't know they couldn't have the material accepted here.

Of course, they could take their material elsewhere so it isn't totally wasted, but it'd still be sour.

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Games | Posted 3/6/2008 5:23:42 PM | message detail
^ Tell me about it.

With my Wakka Only Guide, I started writing that because the board was littered with questions asking why there wasn't a Wakka Only Guide on this site.

I then decided to write one. I was the first person that completed the Wakka Only Guide (according to the board, everyone just gave up while trying to write it).

If I had of known that SB would reject it because it was an user-made FFX Challenge Guide, I probably would not have wrote it. I think the main thing that I am upset about with that was that EVERY other character gets their own guide, but Wakka.

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For my Guides, check my Quote
http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/genmessage.php?board=7&topic=40799192 - Other Systems Petition
Games | Posted 3/6/2008 5:26:45 PM | message detail
brian sulpher, what are these 77 FAQs for games not on this website?

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For my Guides, check my Quote
http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/genmessage.php?board=7&topic=40799192 - Other Systems Petition
cloud VS sephiroth | Posted 3/6/2008 5:31:00 PM | message detail
Check his profile, 77 of those FAQs are for games that were never covered before by someone. Quite impressive!

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Absolute Steve.
www.shillatime.org
Games | Posted 3/6/2008 5:45:32 PM | message detail
Ohh, thought it was 77 games that he knew that were not mentioned on this site.

Dunno why.

That's quite impressive.

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For my Guides, check my Quote
http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/genmessage.php?board=7&topic=40799192 - Other Systems Petition
kylohk | Posted 3/6/2008 6:01:51 PM | message detail
Hmmm.....

So far only cloud has roughly given me a rough idea of what's expected.

I guess I'll read through that guide and at least try to emulate his presentation.
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"Hello, Klein, remember me?" - BANG! - A murderous biker in a French Movie
cloud VS sephiroth | Posted 3/6/2008 6:14:53 PM | message detail
I would also suggest you put relevant treasure info at a section. It gives the player an overview of what can be found. I haven't played TP myself, but I assume there's treasure to be found there. A really quick overview on enemies/obstacles can also help. I'm no big fan of maps, especially not if the game provides a map itself, but if the area is hard to navigate then a small ASCII map can also help.

Some may say that a logo is only filler, and I used to think so before, but I think it adds to the presentation of the Guide as a whole.

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Absolute Steve.
www.shillatime.org
kylohk | Posted 3/6/2008 7:25:33 PM | message detail
Yeah, I'm planning to add a section on the "hidden Grottos" in the game, where you dig in at certain points to find a cave with treasure.
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"Hello, Klein, remember me?" - BANG! - A murderous biker in a French Movie
brian sulpher | Posted 3/6/2008 9:14:54 PM | message detail
I guess I should insert the word "before" in there.
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77 FAQs for games never covered at www.GameFAQs.com.
Redemption is only three fights away
The Admiral | Posted 3/6/2008 9:32:31 PM | message detail
[This message was deleted at the request of the original poster]
The Admiral | Posted 3/6/2008 9:33:54 PM | message detail
I want to add to my last post by saying that I think SB has done an amazing job overall since he's taken control of the website. He's much more proactive than CJayC at adding new features and finding ways to improve the experience, and I commend him for that. This site is definitely better now than it was when he took over.

My one knock against him is that it feels like contributors are treated as employees of this website now. It's ridiculous that people have to guess at what the requirements are for posting. It's equally absurd that some people are acting as through SB is doing us a favor by hosting our guides. He has been woefully unresponsive at giving specifics for what will be accepted for saturated games and has really dropped the ball on the ratings system, doing nothing to improve its ineffectiveness despite numerous good suggestions in the other topic. SB posted a couple of months ago that the official policy has not changed with regards to acceptance, but he never said what the official policy was in the first place.

CJayC always understood the value of the FAQ community, and I think we all appreciated the way he made us all feel valuable for our contributions. I would really like to see SB do the same in the future.
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- The Admiral
SBAllen | Posted 3/6/2008 9:50:54 PM | message detail
Well since Devin Morgan asked me to post here I guess I will. I am not currently aware of any "change of policy" in anything. When Jeff was introducing me to his method of accepting new FAQs he explicitly took me that the more full guides a game has, the more strict I should be with posting new ones. There's no "official limit" to the number of FAQs a game can have, but there are really only so many ways you can reword the same information.

If you really want to write for a game with 15+ full FAQs already on the site, your best bet is to explicitly point out to me what is different about your guide compared to what's already on the site. As long as you're presenting new information or at least doing something in a radicially different (read: significantly better) manner, I'll most likely post it.

There's no real "crackdown" on in-depth guides either. As long as they are covering something that isn't already covered then they will most likely be posted, unless they are poorly written or incredibly short. Like everything else these days, a few people complain about something at the same time and it's suddenly a crackdown or change in policy. If you're writing an in-depth FAQ for a game that already has one covering the exact same thing, you again need to inform me why yours is significantly better than the one already up and not just a rehash of the same info to get another contribution up on the site. This again was what I was told to do and not something new. I think everyone can agree that Jeff was a bit of a softie with regard to his own rules though, maybe that's the problem here...

As for "challenge" guides, I'll be completely honest with you. If Jeff hadn't already started a policy of posting "challenge" FAQs before I took over, I wouldn't accept them. Period. A "challenge" is best handled in a non-concrete environment. A FAQ is concrete and something that isn't supposed to really frequently change. A "challenge" is a concept that players can apply to something to make it difficult in their own way. To me, a "challenge" belongs more in something like a message board topic, where the "challenger" creates the rules and people can discuss their experience in fulfilling it. If you write a walkthrough for your challenge... what's the point? The definition of the word challenge is "something that by its nature or character serves as a call to battle, contest, special effort, etc." What's "challenging" about following someone's guide or walkthrough to a challenge again? To be honest, I don't see why FFX needs so many challenge guides, but then again I don't see why any game needs any challenge guide. I'm all for finding ways to challenge yourself, but I'd rather figure out the challenge myself and talk to others about it while doing so.
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Um, not to criticize science or anything, but wouldn't it be easier just to call it "the pink one"?
Games | Posted 3/6/2008 10:12:33 PM | message detail
Just have to ask this, SB. Why do you keep putting speech-marks around the word, Challenge?

Anyway, kinda agree with you on the challenge guides myself. I mainly wrote it as I got bored with the "Why hasn't this website got a Wakka Only Guide?" topics on the FFX Board. The ONLY thing I still do not understand is:

Although I do know that the other 8 guides were probably uploaded for the first time when CJayC was in charge, why can all the other characters of FFX get a guide (or 2, in the case of Rikku and Tidus) and Wakka not get one guide?

Please respond to this, but I bet you will probably be too busy with any updates planned for this site.

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Meowthnum1 | Posted 3/6/2008 10:19:35 PM | message detail
I totally agree about challenge FAQs. What's weird is that at one point (like, 2004-2005ish), I could have sworn that in some guidelines somewhere on the site, it said that challenge FAQs would never be accepted, but then I started seeing them coming up.

Granted, I also think it's kinda pointless to write for games that have already been covered to death (do we really need 18 walkthroughs for Chrono Trigger? 23 guides for Ocarina of Time?). I understand that this is a hobby and all, but in terms of helping people, if there are already 15 FAQs up for a game and you add yours, the odds are vanishingly small that a reader will read yours. I'm not trying to call anyone out on this, but let's just say that your FAQ gets placed seventh out of 15 FAQs (for the sake of argument). Let's also assume that all FAQs are the same size and that none won FAQ of the Month or have any stars (and mind you, if you did submit FAQ #15 for a game, it most likely won't win FotM, since that's also based off need).

A reader will probably, all things equal, start at the top. Let's say the first guide is particularly bad. That's fine; move on to the second. The odds of all six FAQs ahead of you cumulatively not having the information that the reader needs are depressingly small. It almost seems pointless.

Again, I'm not trying to call anyone out on this or seem pugnacious at all, but it's something that some of us have been discussing recently. It's also not a call for change in site policy either. It's just something up for discussion in terms of how we as a community respond to things.
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Gemerl | Posted 3/6/2008 11:32:04 PM | message detail
Perhaps make optional notes mandatory for games with a large volume of FAQs? "Volume Red: This game has more than 10 general FAQs and the chance of acceptance is low. You must provide reasons or evidence as to why this guide exceeds the quality of those already posted." If possible, anyways.

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Super Slash | Posted 3/7/2008 12:35:58 AM | message detail
Thanks for clearing things up, SB. I still hope my Lost Age guide won't be a waste though.
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Current Amount of FAQs: 27 (7689 Total KB)
Current KB FAQ Rank: KB King
The Admiral | Posted 3/7/2008 12:43:57 AM | message detail
SB, thank you for clearing that up.
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- The Admiral
Tessa 6 | Posted 3/7/2008 3:44:34 AM | message detail
I like the idea of challenge FAQs, I think they serve a fine purpose. I do think the notion of dismissing the Wakka Only FAQ is wrong.

And I'm still comfortable in the fact that I'm quite sure that any game I tried to write a complete FAQ for, would get posted. Nothing I've seen has changed that opinion, in my mind. Then again, I wouldn't be crazy enough to write for something like FF7.
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~Karpah~Iron Maiden - 4th February 2008 ^_^
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Psycho_Penquin | Posted 3/7/2008 3:34:18 PM | message detail
So, is SB more lenient with games that have less than 15+ full FAQs? The good news is, probably 1% or less of the games on this site have 15+ full FAQs.

I don't agree with what he said about challenge FAQs at all though. Aren't the point of video games to have fun, relax, and try to figure things out on your own? What's the fun in following a FAQ for a game all the way through? Is there really a sense of accomplishment at the end? But there's tons of complete walkthroughs on this site. Challenge FAQs are actually more needed sometimes than regular FAQs, because when you do a challenge, chances are you're going to get stuck at some point.

Finally, I have said this many times over the years and will continue to do so: This is a hobby, and we FAQ writers are helping in a big way to keep this website alive. We do not get a share of the ad revenue our FAQs undoubtedly bring in. Therefore, I think we should at least receive the common courtesy and respect to be able to write for what we want without having to worry about this stuff all the time. Why shouldn't I be able to write for FF7? It doesn't "need" another FAQ and I am sure I could find better uses of my time, but again this is an unpaid hobby and I should be able to write for it without fear of being rejected if I chose.
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Devin Morgan | Posted 3/7/2008 8:12:19 PM | message detail
Keep in mind that the discussion in this topic is about GameFAQs' policies. In the worst case scenario, if you want to write for a "done to death" game and it gets rejected here, what stops you from getting it posted elsewhere? Because GameFAQs won't post a 20th Ocarina of Time FAQ doesn't mean that other decent game help sites won't gladly accept it. Although, while this is a hobby, what purpose is being served to have an overabundance of FAQs for certain specific games? Granted some of the games in question have been around for 10-15 years tops, but we don't need someone new every year (as it seems) popping up and deciding they need to give their take on completing those games (yet again) as well.

Conversely, I do feel that some folks take the whole "omg my FAQ for <insert insanely popular game> didn't get posted" thing too seriously. There are thousands of games that still need FAQs; you can't possibly tell me that every single person here owns the same exact games and nothing else (all the popular/done to death ones). There are always other ways you can contribute. Maybe it is time to give certain games a rest.

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Devin Morgan | CRP #3579
NES FAQ Completion Project:
http://faqs.retronintendo.com
cloud VS sephiroth | Posted 3/7/2008 8:24:04 PM | message detail
I wish you well on your FF7 progress, as I see in your Quote that you're making a Guide for it. I also wish you luck with getting it posted.

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Absolute Steve.
www.shillatime.org
The Admiral | Posted 3/7/2008 9:04:23 PM | message detail
I agree with the stance on Challenge FAQs, and let me say that I happen to be a big fan of such challenges. Some of the most interesting reads on this site can be found on the original Final Fantasy NES board, where posters chronicle their experiences through a Solo Thief game, a No Magic game, etc. These threads are amazing, and they are where challenge topics belong. It's so much more interesting reading someone's struggles as they die 40 times trying to find the right boss tactic than it would be just seeing that spelled out in a guide.

While an excellent FAQ could be written about a Solo Thief challenge, for example, that particular style of play is very arbitrary and useful to only a small fraction of gamers. You could literally invent any challenge and write a FAQ for it, so where do you draw the line? What if I want to write a FF7 No Fenix Down Challenge guide? This challenge is just as arbitrary as a No Materia challenge, so should this site accept it? There are an infinite amount of challenges that can be invented, and none of them have the broad appeal of regular walkthroughs. Maybe someone here should create a ChallengeFAQs.com website that caters to these sorts of guides, but I agree that they don't belong on GameFAQs.
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- The Admiral
Games | Posted 3/7/2008 9:24:39 PM | message detail
I actually agree that Challenge FAQs are a waste, but people (including myself) write them. I only wrote my ONLY Challenge FAQ (and I do not even plan on doing another guide for any other Challenge) to stop the same topics appearing on the FFX Board. Although it is not on this site, I have not seen that topic appear after it was uploaded to the public domain.

As for when the line should be drawn. Impossible Challenges, Challenges not yet completed and/or half finished challenge guides should not be on this website. However, I have seen a challenge guide that has not been completed, so that is also out of the window.

As for the ChallengeFAQs.com website, I bet that the person who uses that domain would be sued by CNET as that is an obvious play on GameFAQs.com.

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For my Guides, check my Quote
http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/genmessage.php?board=7&topic=40799192 - Other Systems Petition
The Admiral | Posted 3/7/2008 10:03:50 PM | message detail
There is no way GameFAQs could sue for use of that site, unless that site claimed to be affiliated with this one. It's actually not a bad website idea. The domain is still available, so anyone with $10 is free to register and get things started. Maybe honestgamer can add it as an extension to his site? it would certainly be unique content.
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- The Admiral
brian sulpher | Posted 3/7/2008 10:04:39 PM | message detail
I personally agree with Steve here, you write it and it is comparable to what is up, you should be able to get it posted. As for goign to other sites, that is all well and good, but most people start their FAQing on this site, and it is their home site. It is rather galling to see it say "no thanks we have enough for this game so sorry you wasted your time trying to put it here LOLZ".
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77 FAQs for games never covered at www.GameFAQs.com.
Redemption is only three fights away
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