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| SinirothX - a serious problem for one or for all? |
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| From: JungleJim | Posted: 1/4/2004 5:51:24 PM | Message Detail |
| I already told you this, you don't have to credit when taking info from other sources. The fact that you've said it before doesn't make it any more true now than it was the first time. I'm quoting the contributor rules verbatim: What information can I use from other sources without permission? Without permission, you are still free to use facts and other non-creative information. Of course, you still must provide credit to the source of information in your own guide; if you don't, you are plagiarizing. For example, you could get the hit points for the enemies in a game from the official strategy guide for that game and post them in your own guide in your own format. These are facts, and not protected by copyright. However, if you were to copy the guide's strategy on how to beat the boss, that would be a copyright infringement, as you are copying their creative work. Copying the format of the table of hit points would also be a violation of their copyright. It clearly says you can use factual information without permission, but that you must credit the source. --- Microsoft = the devil |
| From: Juan Dixon | Posted: 1/4/2004 5:51:53 PM | Message Detail |
| I assure you my FFX guide has a lot more information than yours. I don't even see what that has to do with SI making errors on purpose, but hey, I've given up on you long ago, since you just turn everything into a personal attack on me, even when they're not warranted, or even when they don't make sense. |
| From: Juan Dixon | Posted: 1/4/2004 5:53:27 PM | Message Detail |
| For example, you could get the hit points for the enemies in a game from the official strategy guide for that game and post them in your own guide in your own format. These are facts, and not protected by copyright. It clearly says you can use factual information without permission, but that you must credit the source. Thanks for not contradicting yourself. |
| From: JungleJim | Posted: 1/4/2004 5:55:47 PM | Message Detail |
| The first paragraph you quoted is from the quoted rules. The second paragraph you quoted is my comment. My fault for not delineating properly, but I didn't contradict myself. I don't know why we're still arguing about the factual thing. I even bolded the relevant sections for you in my original quote. --- Microsoft = the devil |
| From: Juan Dixon | Posted: 1/4/2004 5:57:38 PM | Message Detail |
| Also, I really wish people would stop pretending Split has done a FFX FAQ and nothing else. I don't care if his FFX FAQ is totally accurate, his Legaia 2 guide is awful, with an absolute abudance of terrible errors and spelling mistakes, as well as a skimpy walkthrough that doesn't explain where any items are (his FF X-2 FAQ tends to do this as well from what I've seen. I needed help in the Thunder Plains so I could get all the chests, and he didn't even bother to explain where they were, just what items you could find. This is not the point of an in-depth walkthrough, and is really awful for a 1 MB+ guide.) and other errors. I'm sure he was just trying to trap me though. Too bad I know the game too well, and the only thing he did was motivate me to finish mine so people could have a guide that explained things and didn't have tons of errors. |
| From: Juan Dixon | Posted: 1/4/2004 5:59:33 PM | Message Detail |
| You can take information from a guide that has factual information from the game without credit BECAUSE IT'S THE SAME THING AS TAKING IT FROM THE GAME. Goddamn, I don't see what's so hard to understand about this. |
| From: JungleJim | Posted: 1/4/2004 6:03:44 PM | Message Detail |
| J.D., what you are saying doesn't agree with the contributor rules. Are you saying we should believe what you say over CJayC? Hardly. Besides, you obviously haven't read all the posts in this topic. My original issue regarding factual information was regarding information that isn't available from examining the game directly, and therefore strongly suggests that it was copied from an official strategy guide. --- Microsoft = the devil |
| From: me frog | Posted: 1/4/2004 6:04:53 PM | Message Detail |
| You can take information from a guide that has factual information from the game without credit BECAUSE IT'S THE SAME THING AS TAKING IT FROM THE GAME. Holy crap, that's what we've been trying to tell you. Oh well, that's past us now, let's go back to the original topic subject. --- Homer Simpson:Hello? Operator? Give me the number for 911! If you can't impress people with your intelligence, confuse them with your stupidity |
| From: djg40 | Posted: 1/4/2004 6:05:42 PM | Message Detail |
| Split can do what he likes. I agree that Split is welel within his right by placing those traps and useless information in his guides. However, you have to see that it certainly doesn't make them as accurate as possible. You do see that, don't you? --- Psycho Penguin: "I don't know how I got so high." Current Project(s): Secret GBA Game |
| From: Juan Dixon | Posted: 1/4/2004 6:06:35 PM | Message Detail |
| Everything that Nick is accused of "stealing" is stuff you can find directly in the game it seems. |
| From: JungleJim | Posted: 1/4/2004 6:08:16 PM | Message Detail |
| Holy crap, that's what we've been trying to tell you. Huh? I think Juan Dixon has always agreed with you on that subject, me frog. CJayC and I are two people who disagree. However, you have to see that it certainly doesn't make them as accurate as possible. You do see that, don't you? Yes, I do see that. Everything that Nick is accused of "stealing" is stuff you can find directly in the game it seems. No. Just go back and read my first post in this topic, I'm tired of repeating myself. --- Microsoft = the devil |
| From: me frog | Posted: 1/4/2004 6:10:27 PM | Message Detail |
| LOL whoops, I mistaked Steve's username for Jim's. Sorry. --- Homer Simpson:Hello? Operator? Give me the number for 911! If you can't impress people with your intelligence, confuse them with your stupidity |
| From: Mr Jason | Posted: 1/4/2004 6:43:40 PM | Message Detail |
| Bah, I sleep all day and I miss his responce....Oh well.... --- Thank you, St. Peter. I look forward to hearing your response to the following: ( | ) This is your ass. It is very fat.-Seanbaby |
| From: War Doc | Posted: 1/4/2004 6:52:55 PM | Message Detail |
| So, with over 200 posts of bickering and debating, what conclusions have been drawn from all this? It isn't about the quality of the FAQ in question but whether one author plagiarized from another author. Seems once again the path has been strayed from. Perhaps get a few impartial people together to compare the two FAQ's against each other. --- 1 lb C4, 200 ft det cord, cable, and battery is a great problem solver Living by chance, loving by choice, killing by profession |
| From: Karpah | Posted: 1/4/2004 7:02:55 PM | Message Detail |
| This is what I can sum up from this topic: -> The only thing that looks bad to me in terms of plagiarism, is the word-for-word quoting (unless the quote was in the game, I dunno), and the comment on the white magic, cuz for Nick it would be technically incorrect. -> The idea of setting traps in a guide is ****ing ridiculous. I mean, really. Come on now. And false information like incorrect weapon abilities is why people ***** on message boards that the guides aren't good enough. -> All factual information, whether shown or not, can be obtained from the game by hacking, as was shown by lordskylark, so don't assume that stats were taken from strategy guides without credit. -> Chris, for some reason you seem to be talking complete nonsense. I can't quite decipher your posts past the flaming, cuz you said something about your FFX guide having more info than Steve's... how can you compare a walkthrough and a stat maxing guide? If I think of anything else, I'll post. --- [ #70 ] Push button to turn on. Play with button to drive wild... <Proud fiance of the Psycho Penguin> |
| From: Happybuddha311 | Posted: 1/4/2004 7:22:49 PM | Message Detail |
| What is there to debate? He Confessed, Debate over. The only thing left to argue over is a fitting punishment that no one here gets to decide. --- Happybuddha311:Has wasted his time reading all the posts in this topic. |
| From: JungleJim | Posted: 1/4/2004 7:29:25 PM | Message Detail |
| The only thing that looks bad to me in terms of plagiarism, is the word-for-word quoting (unless the quote was in the game, I dunno), and the comment on the white magic, cuz for Nick it would be technically incorrect. While I agree that word-for-word quoting is the most egregious form of plagiarizing, it's not the only form described in the contributor rules. A faq author is responsible for keeping all forms of plagiarism out of their documents. All factual information, whether shown or not, can be obtained from the game by hacking, as was shown by lordskylark, so don't assume that stats were taken from strategy guides without credit. Agreed, it doesn't prove he took them from a strat guide. But I think it's the most likely explanation. My question on the subject to him went unanswered. He chose not to offer an explanation. I have some experience with hacking, and I've read several faqs where the authors use those techniques to extract information from the game that isn't otherwise available. In every case I can remember, the authors took pains to describe their methods. I know I did. Few people have the skill to do clever data analysis or hack games. If that were the only thing wrong with SinirothX's faq, I'd be happy if a line were added saying that he got the values from the Brady Strategy Guide. --- Microsoft = the devil |
| From: Karpah | Posted: 1/4/2004 7:41:04 PM | Message Detail |
| If that were the only thing wrong with SinirothX's faq, I'd be happy if a line were added saying that he got the values from the Brady Strategy Guide. ... or Prima... or piggyback... or whichever strategy guide he may have used ;) Agreed in that the stats were most likely taken from a strategy guide, as I know nothing about hacking but have heard that it's an arduous task. A faq author is responsible for keeping all forms of plagiarism out of their documents. Of course they are responsible, which is why so many people jumped on Nick in this topic so fast. This is gonna sound dumb, but I always thought that us FAQ writers, as a community, were working to stamp out plagiarism, then it turns out that someone within us has plagiarized off another. Bad bad. Very bad. And I would just like to comment again, cuz I don't think my last post made it clear enough. I don't like the idea of traps in guides on principle, but some can be harmless. Things like typos and the like, they don't hurt anybody, and can prove cases of plagiarism by themselves. But downright purposefully lying about things like weapon abilities, like SI said with the Stop and Slow and stuff. That is so wrong, I can't even find the words to describe it. Aren't we here to help the readers, not to feed them false information? --- [ #70 ] Push button to turn on. Play with button to drive wild... <Proud fiance of the Psycho Penguin> |
| From: Juan Dixon | Posted: 1/4/2004 7:41:20 PM | Message Detail |
| I know I usually have trouble responding to 150 posts attacking me. |
| From: me frog | Posted: 1/4/2004 7:49:03 PM | Message Detail |
| I agree with Karpah here. It's okay to have a few spelling mistakes in your FAQs. For example, SI didn't have to miss inform people about the girls reviving with 25% HP. He could've put another spelling error in, and said that they revived with 12.5% HP. I am strongly against missinforming people just to prove someone took info from your guide. I like to help my readers instaed of putting more effort into trapping somebody. --- Homer Simpson:Hello? Operator? Give me the number for 911! If you can't impress people with your intelligence, confuse them with your stupidity |
| From: Snow Dragon | Posted: 1/4/2004 7:57:57 PM | Message Detail |
| I don't see the harm in it. It's a small statistic for one small spell crammed in thousands of kilobytes of much more important information. It's not as if he told someone to go to the wrong area or rearranged the order of some extremely important steps in some sort of puzzle solution (as someone stated earlier). I think it's a particularly crafty and original method of keeping folks from ripping off your work, and from the evidence seen here, Split's just had some success with it. |
| From: Karpah | Posted: 1/4/2004 8:00:04 PM | Message Detail |
| It's 'crafty and original' to lie and deceive? Wow. --- [ #70 ] Push button to turn on. Play with button to drive wild... <Proud fiance of the Psycho Penguin> |
| From: JungleJim | Posted: 1/4/2004 8:06:55 PM | Message Detail |
| And I would just like to comment again, cuz I don't think my last post made it clear enough. I don't like the idea of traps in guides on principle, but some can be harmless. Things like typos and the like, they don't hurt anybody, and can prove cases of plagiarism by themselves. Agreed. If I were to use traps, I'd try to use typos or something that wouldn't require sacrificing my accuracy of information. --- Microsoft = the devil |
| From: TheSHiFT | Posted: 1/4/2004 8:08:28 PM | Message Detail |
| Fairly new writer here with a quick question. How is this community going when two to the top authors are either A) allegedly plagiarizing or B) setting 'traps' to catch him? --- You can do anything at http://www.zombo.com |
| From: Snow Dragon | Posted: 1/4/2004 8:11:18 PM | Message Detail |
| Who's more a fool, the fool or the fool who follows him? |
| From: Psycho Penguin | Posted: 1/4/2004 8:16:37 PM | Message Detail |
| If you're a fool, I wouldn't worry about the fool following you, I'd try to stop being a fool. --- [ #3 ] No more games, I'm gonna change what you call rage. <Proud Fiance of Karpah> |
| From: Warhawk | Posted: 1/4/2004 8:45:06 PM | Message Detail |
| I see that this is basically going nowhere with all the senseless bickering and all that. I think we all should give this a rest, besides what's the use of keep on fighting and bicker if it's not going to get anywhere besides pain and misery. --- He's going James on us. -panzar dragoon |
| From: Haunter12O | Posted: 1/4/2004 8:55:53 PM | Message Detail |
I'm more concerned about Bremen's faq, which is 50% filler space filler. |
| From: me frog | Posted: 1/4/2004 8:58:34 PM | Message Detail |
| I'm more concerned about Bremen's faq, which is 50% filler space filler. I can't tell if that's supposed to be for this topic or not. --- Homer Simpson:Hello? Operator? Give me the number for 911! If you can't impress people with your intelligence, confuse them with your stupidity |
| From: SayainPrince | Posted: 1/4/2004 10:45:41 PM | Message Detail |
| [This message was deleted at the request of the original poster] |
| From: SayainPrince | Posted: 1/4/2004 10:46:46 PM | Message Detail |
| I don't like the idea of "traps"... At least for stats, and numbers. Stuff like spelling, or stuff liek that is no big deal... Remembe,r when SI said he raplced a 12.5% with 25% for when you are revived? Lets say you ae in a boss fight, and you have 5000 hp, and you are killed... 12.5% = 625HP 25% = 1250HP If you were in a boss fight, and you assumed that by reviving, if you had expected 1250HP but you only get half that much, and the boss has some stong attacks, you could be royally screwed by that. <:O --- "Uh oh! Hes playing the 'age' card! I sense him playing a 'your mom' card in the near future." ~ Ratdog |
| From: The Admiral | Posted: 1/4/2004 11:00:22 PM | Message Detail |
| I don't get why this even being debated. He admitted to plagiarism and all his works should be removed from this site as is stated in help files. Steve's argument about this being "factual information" is a load of BS, as complete sentences, including spelling errors, were ripped directly. This is not the same as putting a HP value in some appendix, it's flat out plagiarism that has no place on GameFAQs. Nothing personal, Siniroth, but your contributions to this site should be taken down. --- How does an Advanced Meta-Mod feature sound? Take a sample tour: http://free.hostdepartment.com/A/Admiral1018/AMMS/AMMS_Intro.htm |
| From: Deadmeat X | Posted: 1/4/2004 11:28:55 PM | Message Detail |
| All of his work removed? That's rough man. Look, I won't try to defend Sini. He has admitted he copied stuff, thus, he's guilty. Still, why remove ALL of his work? Look, what we're dealing with here is probably a small error. Siniroth was too lazy, not careful enough, didn't see the traps and didn't think anyone would notice. Ít was probably just a bad day, we all have a bad day every now and then... My point is, he make one little mistake, and now months and months of work, some very good FAQs, it all needs to be removed, no questions asked, bye SinirothX, nice knowing you but you're now officially ****ed? Take the FFX-2 FAQ down, sure, but I'd say leave his other FAQs out of this. As long as they don't violate any copyright things, it would be better to just leave them on the site, given what great walkthrough they are. (oh, by the way, I KNOW that 'Da Rules' tell us that when an author violates copyright, everything needs to be taken down, but that's just BS...as I tried to explain above) And one more thing, I completely agree with DJG: Point #3 of Split's accusations is just too ridiculous. What's next, you're going to sue him because he clearly states in his FAQ that the lead character is Yuna (he must have copied it from your FAQ, since that piece of info is there too). Alright, you were right about the mission briefing, but you can take it too far. #3 proves absolutely nothing (and #4 is pretty pointless too), so bringing it up only makes you look like a fool. --- No sheep were harmed during the making of this sig FAQ's: 6 Current FAQ: Ratchet and Clank 2 |
| From: SinirothX | Posted: 1/4/2004 11:40:58 PM | Message Detail |
| [This message was deleted at the request of the original poster] |
| From: ZoopSoul | Posted: 1/5/2004 12:10:21 AM | Message Detail |
| This one came out of left field. Nice find, SI... While I have nothing against Sini, it looks like he's guilty. 'Tis a shame. --- ZoopSoul FAQs: 19 - KB: 3745 - CRP: 26774 IGN Guides: http://guides.ign.com/ |
| From: AstroBlue | Posted: 1/5/2004 1:47:06 AM | Message Detail |
| SinirothX posted then deleted it!1!1!!11~ --- AstroBlue | (CRP #4127) <BGFC> <FSSFHRB> Visualshock! Speedshock! Soundshock! Now is time to the 68000 heart on fire! |
| From: Masamune3 | Posted: 1/5/2004 1:54:38 AM | Message Detail |
| I assure you my FFX guide has a lot more information than yours. I don't even see what that has to do with SI making errors on purpose, but hey, I've given up on you long ago, since you just turn everything into a personal attack on me, even when they're not warranted, or even when they don't make sense. I can guarantee you that my stat maxing FAQ has been looked at more times, and helped more people than your FAQ/Walkthrough. Also, I really wish people would stop pretending Split has done a FFX FAQ and nothing else. I don't care if his FFX FAQ is totally accurate, his Legaia 2 guide is awful, with an absolute abudance of terrible errors and spelling mistakes, as well as a skimpy walkthrough that doesn't explain where any items are (his FF X-2 FAQ tends to do this as well from what I've seen. I needed help in the Thunder Plains so I could get all the chests, and he didn't even bother to explain where they were, just what items you could find. This is not the point of an in-depth walkthrough, and is really awful for a 1 MB+ guide.) and other errors. For an awful guide, he sure had what it took to get paid $500 for it. As for a bad FAQ/Walkthrough for Legaia 2, you really can't talk, seeing as how about 40% of it is section heading. Not only that, but in that post, you spelt "abundance" Chris, for some reason you seem to be talking complete nonsense. I can't quite decipher your posts past the flaming, cuz you said something about your FFX guide having more info than Steve's... how can you compare a walkthrough and a stat maxing guide? Bec, I wasn't flaming. I'm making a point. Steve is THE largest hypocrite on this board, and gets the feeling that he is somehow elevated above all else. He insults me for "making personal attacks", when it was him all along. Steve started this BS. "I have given up on you" means: "Man, you PWNED me bad, and I don't want to have to deal with you any more. Boo hoo." --- If life hands you lemons, THEN YOU SIT DOWN AND EAT YOUR DAMN LEMONS! |
| From: Psycho Penguin | Posted: 1/5/2004 2:01:42 AM | Message Detail |
| I can guarantee you that my stat maxing FAQ has been looked at more times, and helped more people than your FAQ/Walkthrough. Well, that's just a tad bit different than "information", now isn't it? Care to change your wording again, or are you going to stick with this? For an awful guide, he sure had what it took to get paid $500 for it. Whoever paid 500 dollars for that piece of turd has my condolences. As for a bad FAQ/Walkthrough for Legaia 2, you really can't talk, seeing as how about 40% of it is section heading. My Legaia 2 guide has no big errors, purposely or not, and has helped a lot of people. It also has an in-depth walkthrough. Split is not exactly the most filler-friendly person around either. So, hush your mouth. --- [ #3 ] No more games, I'm gonna change what you call rage. <Proud Fiance of Karpah> |
| From: Psycho Penguin | Posted: 1/5/2004 2:03:57 AM | Message Detail |
| "I have given up on you" means: "Man, you PWNED me bad, and I don't want to have to deal with you any more. Boo hoo." It means I'm sick of you putting words in my mouth. I've never once claimed I'm a good writer, much less "the best writer for RPGs". Just because I don't like Split as a writer doesn't mean I think I am hot ****. I prefer in depth walkthroughs that don't have tons of errors and explain where to go and stuff, not some poorly organized 1 MB guide which doesn't even explain how to go through half the dungeons in the game. Oh, snap, you see what I did, I did an entire post defending myself and my claims without attacking you. Look into it, thanks. --- [ #3 ] No more games, I'm gonna change what you call rage. <Proud Fiance of Karpah> |
| From: AstroBlue | Posted: 1/5/2004 2:06:34 AM | Message Detail |
| HISTORY LESSON * Odysseus sacked the citadel of Troy by hiding in a giant wooden horse. * Steve got caught for for stealing factual information. * CJayC removed all his stuff. * Steve went to FBGames and acted like a bastard on these boards. * Steve and CJayC made up, and he reposted all his guides (reworked to remove his SNAFUs). * Terrorists fly planes into the world trade center and pentagon. * President Bush chokes on a pretzel. * Steve Irwin dangles his baby infront of a croc. --- AstroBlue | (CRP #4127) <BGFC> <FSSFHRB> Visualshock! Speedshock! Soundshock! Now is time to the 68000 heart on fire! |
| From: Deadmeat X | Posted: 1/5/2004 5:34:52 AM | Message Detail |
| How did this turn into a Stve McFadden bashing topic? --- No sheep were harmed during the making of this sig FAQ's: 6 Current FAQ: Ratchet and Clank 2 |
| From: Psycho Penguin | Posted: 1/5/2004 5:52:04 AM | Message Detail |
| Cuz I posted in it, and everyone who responds to me has to ignore the points I make and personally attack me instead. Oh yeah, turns out I didn't really steal any "factual information" after all and was let back by CJC a few months later. He had to take it down due to me being accused, but it was nothing that serious. Thanks for the history lesson though. It was a decent try. --- [ #3 ] No more games, I'm gonna change what you call rage. <Proud Fiance of Karpah> |
| From: AstroBlue | Posted: 1/5/2004 6:15:44 AM | Message Detail |
| I really can't remember that far back. I really only vaguely remember there was a topic like this that proved it. I thought you stole FF4 lists from some guide book... or something like that. Same as that topic where there was a nice little fight over your craptastic in-depth fighting guides that had 5% content and had like 6 legal sections. I wasn't attacking you anyway, quit with the persecution complex, though now you say it I may as well provide. I was just showing that a former plagiarist can make like a Phoenix, and be reborn. Nemesis is another one. God, there should be a plagiarizing prolifics club! Can I join? I didn't credit a website that I used to fill in the gaps of my Super Mario RPG lists for 2 years, until I realized my bad. Does that count? --- AstroBlue | (CRP #4127) <BGFC> <FSSFHRB> Visualshock! Speedshock! Soundshock! Now is time to the 68000 heart on fire! |
| From: Masamune3 | Posted: 1/5/2004 6:20:13 AM | Message Detail |
| Oh, snap, you see what I did, I did an entire post defending myself and my claims without attacking you. Look into it, thanks. There's a first time for everything, isn't there. On another note: Steve Irwin is the biggest idiot in the world. Hell, lock him up with Michael Jackson. --- "We have lost CJayC. His account is now in control of a highly intelligent CNET A.I.." - MoonMan456 |
| From: DBM11085 | Posted: 1/5/2004 6:30:39 AM | Message Detail |
| Damn Astro... That's harsh. :) BTW, if you don't mind, come on AIM later today (or during the morning your time)... I got some FFTA info for you to look at. --- I need everything, the world owes me I tell it to myself, and I agree |
| From: Masamune3 | Posted: 1/5/2004 6:32:17 AM | Message Detail |
| *looks at computer clock* 1:30AM Damn. I need to stop this... --- "We have lost CJayC. His account is now in control of a highly intelligent CNET A.I.." - MoonMan456 |
| From: Psycho Penguin | Posted: 1/5/2004 6:45:28 AM | Message Detail |
| Being accused of plagarism does not make you a plagarist. I took stuff from Brady guides and credited Prima on accident. MY BAD YO. I remember CJC was quite mad at me at the time, but he later said it wasn't a serious deal and that he felt I "learned my lesson" and to make sure to credit the right people in the future. --- [ #3 ] No more games, I'm gonna change what you call rage. <Proud Fiance of Karpah> |
| From: Split Infinity | Posted: 1/5/2004 10:08:15 AM | Message Detail |
| Steve, issue in point here isn't Legaia 2 guide (which I don't even see why bring it up). It's about FFX-2. And just in case you missed it... Sini swiped some stuff from one of my previous guides. I've reasoned with him back then, but the bitter taste remained. After being plagged once: 'The end justifies the means'. When it will be you that will be plagiarized (don't know if you've been ever so far), use whatever is necessary for your own protection of your work. |
| From: Psycho Penguin | Posted: 1/5/2004 10:09:17 AM | Message Detail |
| I think the spelling errors would have been sufficient. --- [ #3 ] No more games, I'm gonna change what you call rage. <Proud Fiance of Karpah> |
| From: Split Infinity | Posted: 1/5/2004 10:18:02 AM | Message Detail |
| I don't agree 100%. Spelling errors can easily be spotted by using spellchecker, or section can be rewritten by writer's own words. What I used now, it worked. |
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